FIL passed away last year and the children decided it’s unsafe for her to continue to live alone in the rural area and moved her to an independent living place, close to one of her daughters. We were rushed to move her, the idea is that we’ll deal with the house later.
MIL wants to go back to the house this summer, to remodel it by herself so she can sell it by herself because she’s a big fan of those house flipping shows on HGTV. Of course it’s all nonsense. She does not have the mental capacity, she can barely operate a microwave and thinks bank statements are bills she owes.
We agree she should sell the house, it’s been unoccupied and deteriorating in the last 6 months. She’ll need the money to pay for more care as the disease progresses. She says she wants to sell but refuses to give any of the children POA for real estate to handle selling the house.
Any suggestions? None of the children wants to be her guardian btw. She does not have good relationships with her children, the children feel somewhat obligated to help her but have all set boundaries. If she grants the POA, the children will help getting the house ready, and sell it. But they don’t want to become her guardian.
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Come DDay, she goes back to IL and signs the POA, which you have ready. Of course with luck she may give up earlier than the original DDay, which would be even better. Then if she won’t sign immediately (while she is still feeling overwhelmed with how difficult things are), the family no longer provides support and you say that one of you will seek guardianship to force the sale. Yes, you are quite nasty if that’s what it takes. Her failure to cope during her stay at home plus her failure to go through with the POA as the alternative, are important issues for the guardianship application.
To make all this work, the basis has to be agreement with all the family. I strongly suggest that you have a meeting to agree it, document the agreement and get it signed by everyone involved. You also all put in some money stated in the written agreement (‘consideration’ in legal language), as kitty to help get things started eg re home care. This makes it a binding contract between you all. However, Ludmila, if you are only DIL/ SIL I would try to get one of the actual children to be the front runner if it’s at all possible. It just sits better with a lot of people, probably including the Guardianship court.
It’s really hard. Good luck. When you have a plan, it may be worthwhile to get legal advice eg to write up the agreement and the POA document. That will also be useful if you do have to proceed to guardianship. Best wishes, Margaret
Also: Foremost, subsidiary of Farmers, does vacant / unoccupied home insurance. How do you think people insure their homes during the winter when they move to their condo in a warmer part of the country for half a year?
if you still remember that Realtors name, I’d suggest that you contact them again. Go over briefly that previous meeting and be real direct & upfront that Mils house needs to be sold as she’s actually now moved to IL and would the Realtor like to discuss with you what’s realistically needed to have it “market ready” both for legal needed and the physical condition of the property and have them be the listing agent. Mention that family is a “motivated seller” now. Firstly the Realtor will be flattered and just might want to be the listing agent but if not they can refer you to another agent who might be a better fit. AND initial Realtor - if it’s a referral - gets a bit of the 3% sellers commission. So they will keep their hand in on showing it if they have a potential buyer.
Again please clearly find out what legal will need in order to actually sell the house and do the signatures at the Act if Sale. If your state requires the owner - aka MIL - to physically be there and happily sign off on documents and answer a couple of notary questions and you pretty well know that is not at all possible, then your going to need to look at getting guardianship done.
You cannot have her at the Act of Sale refuse to sign. This can morph into big problems.You do not things to ever go there.
Unless that place will sell for over $ 350k, there more than likely will not be any excess $$, as she will go likely thru 350k for care. She cannot gift IF there is any possibility of needing Medicaid in the next 5 years (Medicaid look back period).
Right now she’s - I’m guessing - totally ok on paying for her IL with just her SS $ and any other retirements & savings.
But NH can run 5k - 15k a month. some places 18-20. MC in many places run somewhat less than a NH. Whatever the case, it’s frightfully expensive. Average stay in a NH is 2.5 years, roughly $ 300k. Mil will need every penny.
If house is for sure over 450-500k, her $$$$ might outlive her. If y’all are wanting to be reimbursed for stuff you & hubs have paid for to datem I’d try to do a detailed list of all that ahead of sale so his siblings are clearly understanding that this $ goes to repay hubs. And if any of the subs also have fronted $. Personally I would not spend the $ but have it set aside in its own account so should Medicaid be applied for within the 5 yr lookback and gifting / transfer penalty comes up, you can use the $ to clear the transfer penalty.
whatever the case, I’d have an elder law attorney go over her legal and update as needed before the sale. Good Luck.
She is currently in IL but from what I read about AD she’ll need AL/MC in a year or two.
The plan is, after the house sale we’ll know how much money there is, then we will starting looking for a AL/MC that can work with her $.
If your mother has progressed to a particular phase of her dementia, there may be no reasoning with her and you or one of your siblings may be forced to petition for guardianship in order to sale the house.
When you get to the point of selling the house, I suggest you restrict yourself to "lipstick" repairs. Empty and clean the house, apply a neutral coat of paint throughout, perhaps refinish wood floors and replace bath and kitchen fixtures; some realtors in our area will oversee such "prepare for sale" repairs for an additional fee. Make repairs as needed so the house is livable at the time of sale, but leave major remodel projects to the new owners unless its some feature that would make the sale difficult. For example, my parents house had the laundry room in the basement and limited pantry space in the kitchen or closet space in the kitchen entry so I added a mud room just off the kitchen (with pantry and coat closet space) and moved the laundry to the main level. This was a relatively cheap addition and definitely added to the sale-ability of the house and well as its value.
Insurance and vandalism risks may be points your mother is still likely to consider as reasons for a sale. Unoccupied houses are nearly impossible to insure, houses under remodel are more likely to burn or suffer major damages, and empty or houses under remodel are more likely to be vandalized. Wouldn't it be better to store the keepsakes and sale the house now than lose the keepsakes and the home value if it was set on fire?
Good luck dealing with your mother.
So is there 1 mom/mil would accept information & decisions from?
is it your spouse? or is it the daughter closest to the AL?
imho there must be 1 that is “shepherding” mom & enforcing decisions, AND others need to -without interference- let that person lead.
Can your in-laws family & their spouses actually do this?? like keep in their lanes for the next several Months or years??
You married into this, will they do this?
To me, that’s the first thing to determine. Cause it will do absolutely no good to have Big Sissy spend time, emotion & $, if there’s going to be backbiting & mendacity from an errant son-in-law or greedy grandkid. Mil soundS very “my word is law” type & so far nobody has been able to stand up to her & have it stick. Accurate??
If answer is “No”, unless you & your spouse want beyond frustration, I’d step back and either let MIL become a “ward of the state” or find a CELA level of elder law attorney firm that does guardianships where it’s an atty of the firm who becomes the guardian & family gets to provide input if it’s this route. That house can be used for collateral for this.
if its “yes”, I’d get a memo of understanding as to who’s dPOA that the kids sign. That sibling speaks with 3- 4 Realtors to see what legally the paperwork must be to take house to an Act of Sale and get it sold. My experience is that what’s your states Real Estate laws are is going to be determined what’s needed. If its DPOA with “all financials” ability is fine what’s needed, that going to be lots easier to get that house sold than a state that needs MIL to actually in person sign with notary present. If MIL will balk at signing & refuse, it will kill the deal. If this happens, it dominos to other issues.....
also please please realize that any $ spent on the house - if paid for by the kids - cannot easily be reinbursement should MIL need to apply for Medicaid. Medicaid will look at this as “gifting”. And once Medicaid applied for then basically all income mil has must become her copay to NH. Medicaid rules & copay requirements seem to come as beyond a total surprise to family.
If there’s looking like lots of outlay needed to sell property, it may end up to be simpler to go to a property management company that can bill mil & place a workmans lien on the property so that when it goes to the Act of Sale that workmen’s lien must be paid from the proceeds in order for sale to go thru. The management co will take care of getting the house “market ready”, doing whatever repairs needed, maybe even paying utilities. They can file a lien as House is securitized collateral. There’s been a couple on AC who have taken this route.
Imho selling “As Is” is a theory, should hubs family say this.... there’s always costs... like taxes$ & in$urance paid, yard cut, Utilitie$. So who’s going to pay all this, & be ok IF not reimbursed, should Medicaid get filed in mil future?
Also Medicaid will fully expect it to be sold at FMV which tends to be tax assessor value. If value is whack, may need to legally show why less. Not Realtor comps. I’m with NYDiL to get an inspection done. For my moms place I had inspection done 1st and that given to appraiser to use. Value Significantly less and legal as they both place a seal on documents.
so what’s the family like?
everyone has been telling MIL “no you can’t do this.. ...”. And that hasn’t worked. We will all have to communicate better I guess. we are new to this and are still learning how to speak AD.
Hopefully we can find a realtor/broker that can get the house ready and the work done will be paid from the sale of the house ( a lien ). Finding someone trustworthy so we won’t get ripped off is another challenge for us.
Whichever of her children she respects most must take the lead in speaking for everyone that the longer she waits the more that house will decay and the lower will be her proceeds from a sale. "Mom, it's prudent to give one of us POA specifically for the sale of the house otherwise we cannot help you with the sale."
Consider getting MIL to hire and pay for a home inspector. It is worth the $300 or so to give you all a solid picture of what, if anything, is actually wrong with the house. And you can lower the price accordingly. This is another good reason for her to give one of you POA for the house sale.
Too many people make the mistake of making cosmetic repairs. If the house has good bones, pricing it as an as-is-fixer upper will help it to sell quickly. "Mom, the house should have been on the market already. Families are more inclined to move before the fall or first cold snap."
Explain to MIL: "Mom, houses are selling quickly because of the pandemic, and your house is where people are looking to move."
Explain to MIL: "The only thing that needs to be done is mowing the lawn. Do you want to mow the lawn every single week until the house sells?" She probably will not want to do that. Let her know that good realtors will have such services at their fingertips for extra charge of course, but it is worth not having that headache.
Explain to MIL: "Mom, let's focus on getting your house sold and getting you some plants and flowers for you to have now."
And everyone has to tell the sibling who says “oh I’m so worried” to stop it because it's unhelpful and right now everyone has to pull in the same direction and if that sibling cannot pull, that sibling needs to find some other way to help.
These are hard conversations. Everyone must agree. Everyone must be willing to be a broken record. It's tough.
Contracting and house resolution is complicated; even if I were facing dementia, I'd still want to have the benefit of life experience that younger folks don't have.
But trying to get legal authority isn't working, so perhaps another method is subject for consideration, which is to work with her on her level and make her feel good about herself while resolving a critical issue.
I've read too many posts about adult children who want to take over and get something accomplished, completing ignoring the emotional damage to the parent. I've been through that, and never found it worth going through again. It's much better to work toward a conciliatory solution.
Another thought on contractors: I'm very partial to owner owned and operated as well as Veteran owned companies; the owners and generally the staff bring an attitude toward working that I don't see in many other contracting companies.
My husband is under a lot of pressure from family members to “just go find a realtor and have it listed on the market and when it’s time to sign, make her sign”. I don’t think it’s possible to force it on her that way. she might flip out and who knows what she’ll do?
For an older person, or even someone younger, there are a lot of decisions to be made. So, simplify them, down to one at a time. And let her think she's a "flipper", just provide more of the answers and suggestions to avoid her slipping into a position that's overwhelming.
I completely understand her position, and really think that a lot of people feel the same way but are overwhelmed with the decision making. The tv flipper programs contractors take charge, and that's an important factor; the house owner has limited decisions to make, another important factor. And, equally important, contractors have connections with other contractors that a homeowner does not. That can stall a process indefinitely.
Last year I had to repair damage to my garage, which I couldn't have handled myself for a variety of reasons, safety being one. I contacted about a dozen contractors, ranging from handymen to siding and gutter contractors. Only a few were polite and said they couldn't handle the work for another 4 (!) months.
Some made appointments which they never kept. Some gave estimates but never returned calls when I called to schedule.
Eventually I lucked out and got a good contractor, but even then, some of the lesser project work didn't get done.
Another major issue was far more complicated; I spend hours trying to find a contractor for a complex project, got some good suggestions, but found no one who was interested, in part b/c that project typically would involve an insurance claim, and contractors could make more and overcharge an insurance company more easily than an individual.
Prepare your own work scope, by category, steps, and goals. Give MIL a choice of just 2 issues, to decomplicate the issues for her decision. Start with the easiest ones. And make one choice much easier, i.e., just for example purposes, taking Tothill's situation:
1. Would she like to have the deck repaired or not? Simple question; make her feel good when she makes a decision.
2. Assuming yes, would she like to have the railings replaced or not? Another simple question, and better if the railings are good because she can say no. Another good feeling about making a decision.
I think you get the idea: simplify it so she has no complicated choices, only ones that are easy and can make her feel good. If you get to the point of selecting a contractor, contact some and narrow it down to a few. Then discuss with her, and if you think she'll heed your advice, recommend the best choice. If you think she'd be contentious, recommend the worse choice so she'll choose the other contractor.
In this environment, you'll be lucky if you get a half a dozen or so contractors who are interested.
I learned the hard way that was the best option for addressing cleanouts. One company I hired sent two top notch, sensitive and competent women, who sorted then presented selections to my father for decision: either throw away now, or save for later decision (gives the parent an option but plants a thought of discarding). Discarding now creates a sense of progress; deferring till later creates the sense of making an important decision, both win-win steps.
Take a break and chat, or have an ice cream treat (diet permitting) and encourage the workers to become more acquainted with her.
I realize this sounds simplistic; perhaps it's easier described than implemented. But it's a way she can participate and feel good about herself.
It may take longer, but it seems as though progress is currently difficult, and friction is developing, so what's the best option?
we are working towards convincing her to grant real estate POA to one of the children. My husband already has the POA with her banks to handle all the bills. But real estate is a different one and she insists on “working on the house” herself.
BTW the remodeling/deck repair posting is from “tohill”. Not from me (the OP ).
I have discovered with my Dad, that although my brother has POA and it has been sprung, neither of them are willing to commit to getting much needed work done on the property. We have a complicated situation with a testamentary trust set up in my grandmother's will in 1982.
So now, I am paying out of pocket and hiring people to do necessary work. My brother does not want to pay as he feels he can do the work himself, but he takes years to get to it. It took him over 2 years to replace a deck. He would not hire the work out and the deck was unsafe. My son and I pulled the old one off the rental so he had to step up and do it. Of course he has not finished the job. Dad is overwhelmed by even thinking about what needs doing and would patch a problem instead of repairing it.
Dad does not have dementia.
I called Dad yesterday and told him about a major plumbing repair I have put in motion. He said he was happy he was not dealing with it. What about paying for it?
it seems your brother is at least putting in some work, though not up to your speed or standard. It’s a starting point to have a discussion, probably better than some other families.
the process does not take that long.
It can be time consuming but if the court Appoints one then they will do all that needs to be done. Keep in mind though the Court Appointed Guardian will have control of all your mothers assets. The cost of Guardianship will be paid from those assets as well as court costs. This will eventually leave less for family if she does have any remaining assets when she dies.
Best if you talk to a lawyer that is well versed in Eldercare Law. They will provide the information that is needed. You will have to have a doctor declare that she is not mentally competent.
If all her children are with the decision can't you all help get it ready? Let her be involved with the process and she will probably burn out quickly and let the professionals handle it.
She lost everything when her husband died, she is trying to take back some control of her life. Guide the control instead of removing it.
it is definitely a control issue. She may have lost her wisdom or intelligence but her controlling personality and delusion or grandeur is still intact. She does not believe she’s impaired especially when it comes to the house. Sigh.
Guardianship comes in when she cannot make her own decision. I am curious why you would not want this, as it is not a whole lot different than POA, and often easier in these cases. It DOES entail careful record keeping. And you DO do it all.
The home, of course will become more and more a problem. It will not only deteriorate badly with no one living in it, but insurance companies will not like that it is empty and they may refuse to insure.
At some point this will have to be faced. Even the assisted living will insist on it. And if no one wants to do this a fiduciary may be assigned through the courts. At that point, however, the family will have almost nothing to say about her care, even where she is. Fiduciaries often decide on less good living places in order that money "lasts longer" and that can even be out of your area. Wishing you good luck.
My advice at this point would be that the family chip in for an hour of time with an Elder Law Attorney. Have what info you can re her assets. Tell them you need advice on a way forward for the family. STICK TOGETHER. It is crucial in these times.
We heard it’s a lengthy painful process and could take a year. Courts are very slow these days because of the pandemic.