Kind of a long story, but my husband, who was POA for his brother in a nursing home, recently passed away and their younger brother was listed as contingent POA; the younger brother was already medical POA. The NH brother has Parkinson's, but is not in too bad shape cognitively though has definitely slowed in his thought processes and how long it takes him to make decisions. He is in process of working with a lawyer to update his will, advanced directives, and POA. The surviving younger brother will now be the primary POA and younger brother's son will be the contingent (with the agreement of the NH brother). (NH brother never married and has no kids.) When my younger brother in law went to the bank to let them know my husband had died and he would now be POA, they told him he should contact social security to become rep payee. This has potentially opened up a can of worms. Up until now, the SS check was deposited in the NH brother in law's checking account and my husband wrote the check to the NH for the share of cost (from his brother's account and signed as POA for him). The bank never mentioned to my husband needing rep payee status. Although the NH brother in law can't really manage his checkbook, finances, or bill paying, I don't think he meets a legal definition of incompetence. Younger brother is now having to fill out forms and provide all kinds of documentation to social security so they can determine the NH brother in law's legal competence. NH brother in law's speech is very poor because of the Parkinson's, and can vary day to day or over the course of the day; because of tremor, he has great difficulty writing. One social security rep told younger brother that if they called to talk to the NH brother and he couldn't answer them satisfactorily, then he was not competent and his brothers (my deceased husband and the younger brother) would be considered in violation by not being appointed as rep payee. Another social security rep said that rep payee wasn't needed in this case. I advised younger brother in law to urge the NH brother in law to get his new will, POA, and advanced directives signed ASAP. It appears that social security can make its own determination of legal competence for purposes of deciding if a rep payee is needed. Quoting from them:
"The law requires most minor children and all legally incompetent adults to have payees."
"We presume an adult is capable to manage his or her own benefits. If it appears this may not be true, we gather evidence to decide if we need to appoint a representative payee."
If Social Security says a person is incompetent, could that have repercussions in terms of the person being able to do a will, assign a POA, or sign advanced directives? That's our big concern here.
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2) Social Security was the single worst entity I had to deal with. Do not call them until you absolutely have to. I had a cut-and-dried case: my mother was declared legally incompetent by a judge, and I was her guardian. Caveat: I called a couple of local offices on the mid-Atlantic coast (you may have better luck elsewhere), not the national line, and this was when they were still working from home because of COVID. The national line had much longer hold times, but I still had to wait 30–40 minutes before getting someone at the local offices.
I called repeatedly for 4 *months*. I'd done my research and I was always polite. I had clerks:
-Give me wrong info (the phone clerks are not well versed in complicated matters, but they'll tell you something wrong before they'll admit it).
-Hang up on me.
-Put me on hold "for a second," leave me on hold 1.5 hours, and then hang up.
-Say "call back tomorrow" and hang up.
-Go on an unhinged rant for five minutes that "your mother IS NOT PROPERTY" after I referred to myself as a "guardian of the person and property." How silly of me to use the legal term given to me by the court.
-Tell me someone would call me the next day at 11 am (never happened).
-Tell me she (#1) would have the right form mailed to me (never happened).
-Tell me she (#2) would have the right form mailed to me, but to stay on the line until she was sure it could be done. Turns out the right form was *not* one a phone clerk could initiate. But she did tell me the number code of the form.
-Tell me, when I asked if there was a higher up I could speak to, "We work from home; there is no supervisor." And then hang up.
What finally worked was finding a random form online using the number code I'd gotten. It's not available on the SSA site. It didn't even have the right year on it. I don't recommend this, especially if in-person appointments are open again. But as a Hail Mary pass, I filled it out and sent it with my certified court documents. I mailed it with Signature Confirmation. To my shock, I quickly got a letter back that I'd been made rep. payee.
It was another fiasco once she died. I called the national line to inform them of the death before another payment was issued. After an hour and a half on hold, I finally got a clerk who asked me a bunch of questions. She put me on hold for "just a moment." A half hour later the line disconnected. Then the funeral home told me they would handle notification, and they evidently did, but 3 weeks later a new payment was issued anyway and I had to deal with returning it.
All of this is to say: avoid this if you can. Talk to a branch manager. If payments are going into a functional account, do not upset that apple cart.
As far as what happens after the person is deceased, I don't understand why you were trying to notify social security yourself. This is usually done by the funeral home, and should be a seamless process. My husband died close to the end of a month and he didn't get any payment the following month so I know SS was notified promptly.
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"I personally wouldn't allow the NH anywhere near the finances or access to autopay"
There is no autopay involved. I did not set up Moms account so the NH could pull the money or did I set up auto pay. As Moms POA I filled out a form allowing the NH to contact SS to become Moms payee. Once that was granted, it was between SS and the NH. I assume that the Nursing home had an acct set up that SS was given routing info to because Moms account was never effected. This worked great once Mom was on Medicaid. The NH received Mom SS on the same date each month and Medicaid paid their share. I was out of the loop. If NH had problems getting their last SS payment, that was between them and SS. Once Mom passed and I collected her belongings, never heard from the NH again.
This is what happened to my mom
The bank was out of line. Rep payee was not needed with DPOA.
They will decide whatever they decide but, they don't have the legal authority to declare anyone incompetent. Only a judge can do that.
It is a good idea to get all the paperwork updated asap, you just don't know what tomorrow holds.
Newbiewife, I am sorry for your loss. May you find happiness going forward and may The Lord give you strength, peace and comfort for this new season.
I personally wouldn't allow the NH anywhere near the finances or access to autopay. The place my Mom is in wants payment one month ahead and I pay at the end of the month; people report problems getting reimbursed when paying in advance.
As a retired RN, I've seen way too much of the underbelly of these places and don't trust the integrity of any NH Admin until and unless they prove otherwise.
I just think it's unwise to hand the reins to to strangers who are in it for payment and may care little about the wellbeing of our loved ones.
I am sorry for your loss.
So, apart from hassles with the SSA and their process of determination, the other signed docus should be fine; these are different competency requirements.
For a Will, the standard is 'testamentary capacity': Understanding the instrument one is signing as being a Will; Knowing one's bounty: (approx value of all estate assets incl. accounts, investments, properties, vehicles, valuables, income); Who would be the natural beneficiary(ies) without a Will in place, eg: children and so on (this line of 'intestacy order' for inheritance is in each state's probate statutes) and he hasn't any kids so he needs to understand who would be in line; And to whom the testator wishes his bounty to go upon his death.
Most states and the attorneys who work in probate and estates, place a pretty low bar on it and as long as a person has a basic grasp, the Will is valid. Be sure to have the notary piece done properly, ie: the location on the ss part at top is the State and county signed in, and have a self-proving affidavit signed by 2 witnesses, not among the beneficiaries. If an attorney has any questions or if anyone anticipates a challenge, it's best to simply have the signing filmed and kept, just in case.
The bar is also low for DPOA and Medical POA & Advance Directives. I'd have the NH LSWs do those because they're highly motivated to have them in place for care and payment and have the forms available. May have to nudge them to also get the self-proving affidavit done to make that legal in all US states.
The motor impairment of Parkinson's Disease does not mean he's incompetent to sign these documents. It's just the SSA and whether it lands on the desk of some gatekeeper type person who wants to feel more powerful than they are. So, best to send them the BIMS or other cognition evaluations done by the NH on a quarterly basis; the NHs use these for categorizing residents and their payment scales for daily billing purposes and they are on file (my Mom's is sent to me as her POA, now G&C). So long as their documentation shows him as competent, the SSA can hardly argue otherwise, having never met the dear man.
My story is one of being named by my parents as alternate to one another in all matters and both fell ill with Covid 2 yrs ago; we lost my Dad and Mom was in a transitional care unit while recovering. Since they were up for their last summer in my state (to be with me, my daughter and the granddaughters) for part of the year and they lived in another state, Mom ended up a resident in that same care home. I couldn't have her living with us, however great the love we share.
It's been a lot to contend with and I'd just gotten the last property sold when my long-estranged-from-all narcissist of a sibling stuck her nose in and filed to have Mom adjudicated incompetent and to have a corporation assigned as her Guardian and another corp. as the Conservator of her estate. Oh, ish.
Would I like to take a tire iron...? That answer is, 'Yes.' She did the same thing to my brother 20 yrs ago, tried to overturn his Will by having him deemed incompetent posthumously; it didn't work. She's an NPD and just can't stand being disinherited and left out of estate planning; she considers herself entitled like some Karen on steroids. I just wrote the body of the Objection to get her motives into the probate file and have now begun the process of all that added paperwork.
Pls don't be worried that the previously signed docus are made invalid by some SSA desk jockey. Just keep your documentation in order and ask the NH to do their part; they only want to be paid and the cognition piece can be easily accomplished with a couple simple tests, likely already in his file. With PD, they should be tracking his cognitive and physical function in justifying their billing for services. If you have concerns, have him evaled by an Elder Care team and say why: To enable an attentive family member to manage his affairs.
And from experience, it is much easier, more efficient and less time consuming to pre-designate which is available.
If there is no current or future need to ever work with SSA on behalf of someone else, one shouldn't need a rep payee.