Why are DNR's not banned and why is there still talk about legalizing euthanasia?

I forgot to mention in my first description that my brother was the health care proxy for my father and also the executor of the estate, and it turns out he went into the hospital the morning Dad was supposed to come home and told the nurses and everybody that he had a DNR which he actually didn't. He had a living will but no DNR. It turns out that he just couldn't wait to get his greedy hands on the money. He never showed a trace of grief on my father's death, in fact he acted every bit like he did it on purpose. I think that this probably happens all the time....trusting parents put their estate in their children's hands in their will and the greedy kids use the DNR to make it happen faster.

So sorry for what happened to your mom. I am 77 and avoid all pharma. The Dr. wanted me to consent to biopsy but any hospital or surgery scares me to death because I am sensitive. I avoid doctors like the plague for self preservation. I will let natural causes kill me but will take no pharmaceuticals. Most illness can be cured nutritionally. Examine all drugs she took, obtain all medical records of your mother, check with complaints against institution or hospital, file a complaint with whatever licenses them and talk to your local investigative TV media. Speak to your congressional representatives who can launch investigations. Best to you.

I just got this sent to me via private message on this site. I won't include the name of the person who sent it.

"iDoctor you are on the money! Hospice kills as do the pharmaceutical and medical industry today. They killed my Mom by giving her drugs behind my back on the one day I could not be with her. I believe in a holistic approach to health thru good nutrition. I just wish my Mom would have listened.
I believe today we have many folks who just want to end the burden of taking care of a parent and allow them to be murdered pretending they are doing the right thing to ease their conscience. So sad.
Take care and thanks for letting me know I’m not alone."

Flowgo,

I agree. When you sign a DNR, you are giving medical staff permission to deny you treatment and let you die and relieving them from liability.

The culture of death in our healthcare system uses scare tactics and paints the worst case scenario to get people to sign these documents.

They tell you that you will be hooked to every machine possible and kept alive indefinitely, basically.

I have never, ever seen this happen! I have been at the bedside of someone who was dying without a DNR. When he died, the family made the decision, right there, not to have CPR. They knew he was gone.

I have also been at the bedside of a brain injury victim, who did not have a DNR, who was unplugged from life support, by the hospital, against his family's wishes. He was on life support 3 days.

When it is really our time to die, there won't be any machine or tube that will be able to stop it. 

These documents take the desicion making power away from you and your family and give too much authority to doctors.

You should vistit the Hospice Patients Alliance website. There is much information about these things there. It is a Prolife, patient advocate organization.

Aaaaaahhhhhh!

This thread has been high jacked!!!!

IDoctor,

A living will is just as bad as a DNR. Living wills were written and distributed by the Euthanasia Society of America. They were written to create "a due process of euthanasia", and were considered an incremental step toward advancing their agenda.

This information is easy to find with a google search.

Also, the Hospice Patients Alliance could help you find the answers you are looking for. You should write to them and tell them your story.

Prolife, it would be better if you contact your State Senators/Congresspersons and your U.S. Senators/Congresspersons and let them know how you feel regarding Hospice.

And also contact the National Institute of Health and let them know that their information is incorrect according to your findings.

Otherwise, nothing is going to be solved by posting your material on the forums.

Freqflyer, don't tell Prolife what to say. Is this your message board? Sounds like Prolife is justly disgusted by the loss of our elderly "greatest generation" taking place in our country, mostly by the baby boomers who don't want the hassle of taking care of their own parents (the ones who gave them life and took care of the when they needed it). You have no right telling him or her not to vent disgust on this forum.

So for discussion, what would you suggest, Prolife? 
Allowing the natural process of dying without comfort measures available to ease their pain? Not providing medications used for millenniums  to provide pain relief?
This is a difficult conversation I understand but what other options would you try Prolife, when it is clear a person has a disease that has progressed to non curable?
I am pro Hospice and also pro-life. It just seems that Prolife is insisting it’s their way or the highway. Understand we have differences but don’t guilt anyone for choosing hospice as end of life care. You paint hospice providers as murderers when that is untrue IMO. Each case should be thoroughly reviewed & the person’s care individualized. 
For instance, my own mother’s passing under hospice care. I am a RN. I knew my mother had suffered a stroke about 2 weeks prior to her passing. While she was arousable she didn’t appear to be uncomfortable.
Now to the event that caused my mother’s demise.
I had developed a relationship with the hospice nurse for my mom; her name was Holly. Holly called me at home in MD to tell me, as her & I had discussed on prior calls. I left home I went directly to my mother at her NH.
I sat there and while her breathing was agonal, she would go from hot to cold, moving her arms non purposefully in a random fashion.
Sitting there I drew upon my clinical background & experience to objectively understand what I was seeing, to put this situation into perspective. She had suffered another more severe stroke and now was exhibiting s/s of that cerebral infarct. I narrowed it down to brain stem infarct. While I didn’t have her autopsied, I was ok with accepting this as her end of life diagnosis here on earth Knowing this, I knew she wouldn’t survive this most recent episode at 89 y/o.
Nursing home staff rounded on her all night to assure her comfort was being provided. The nurse even told me that on her last check my mom appeared so calm and serene she did not give a last dose of morphine.

Do you anti-hospice folks agree that when a person is very ill & it is physiologically determined there is no chance of survival to allow that person to die?
When would you “relent” & allow hospice in for comfort care as your loved one slips away?
I can understand, being a Prolife supporter, the need to try to maintain life until a point is reached where whatever disease the person suffers from has ravaged their physical, on earth body.

When would hospice be appropriate for you to choose?—this question put to the anti- hospice folks on this thread.

As far as the spelling police above, please! You may be sitting in your home using your laptop with the “spelling & grammar “ review just a click away. For some of us writing via a small phone or less sophisticated audio device (no IPhone/Android). It’s so easy to make spelling errors with auto fill/autocorrect. Sometimes the opportunity to get back to the post to edit spelling is lost & the error stands. Many of us can hopefully review the post ourselves and work through the spelling issues on our own. When I see an anonymous poster chastise another poster to “learn how to spell” I just want to say “Give it a Break already” and to lay off the poster who may have missed a small spelling error. No one is perfect, neither are “smart phones”. Neither is anyone’s spelling perfect.

What bothers me most is the fear mongering from anti hospice folks. In this instance the family, CGS & the patient as well should have input if they have an opinion. To scare them away from utilizing Hospice telling them Hospice only wants to kill their loved one is just so so wrong. A huge dose of  Extremism. 

I'm still trying to think what to say to the person who was outraged to discover that her father, who had aggressive oesophageal cancer, was not given an endoscopy after his swallow reflex test.

And you have to wonder... what mental image does she have of an endoscopy, or of what the procedure might feel like to someone whose oesophagus is a mass of invaded cancerous tissue? I think perhaps there is a strong case for doctors to use more diagrams when they're explaining a diagnosis.

I oppose euthanasia. And although I try to allow for their understandable strength of feeling I do get wound up when people such as motor neurone disease lobbyists want society to sanction killing purely to make their own personal decisions more manageable - hard cases make bad law. But I don't believe that they are motivated by the desire to get their hands on their parents' estate or to be relieved of a burden. I can think they are wrong without supposing they must also be wicked.

I suggest they stop using strong drugs on patients who aren't having pain and don't want them.

I suggest they stop misusing terminal sedation to impose death by dehydration.

Everyone I have seen these drugs used on, was not having pain that constituted the use of these drugs, and was not having pain that constituted sedation.

In fact, my grandma was sedated in a hospital and we were lied to. She was sedated as soon as her POA left for two hours. We were told that she was not sedated, that morphine doesn't sedate, that it was just to keep her comfortable and that her comatose state was natural and a result of "the dying process".

I suggest they get informed consent before they give these drugs and preform these practices, instead of misleading and lying to families.

I suggest caring, not killing. I suggest that all hospices uphold the original hospice mission set forth by Dame Cicley Sanders, and that they uphold the Hospice Life Pledge.

When you use words like "allow that person to die".. how can death "be allowed", unless it is being imposed in some way?

If natural death is occurring, we can not "allow" it or stop it. We do not have that power.

If death is being "allowed" it is most certainly being facilitated by denying care. Your words give your true beliefs away.

My mother was on palliative care after they removed her ventilator tube. She did not want to live on a ventilator and insisted on a DNR if she ever became incapacitated due to her advanced COPD. Without the morphine and ativan she would have suffered an unmerciful death called air hunger. She died peacefully without suffering. It was my decision as her Medical POA and not the hospital's to administer these comfort drugs. PPOLIFE would you rather see someone suffocate to death than be administered these so called killing drugs??????????

This is for myself personally.

If/when I get to the stage where my mind is still aware but my body has departed helping THEN I would wish to go. I have asked for a DNR and spoken to my husband about it. He would like the same.

I will eventually, tell our children also. Not ask them, tell them. I will inform my doctors.

If my brain is gone then I would hate to be a burden/stress on the family. I have cared for parents and in-laws. It is hard. I do not wish to inflict that on anyone. It is hard to let go but if they are in great pain then, for me, it is the best solution.

Each to their own. No offence meant. Just how I feel.

Shane 1121 is making the false argument that many others make. Flowgo is talking about a person who is NOT dying, and does NOT have a terminal illness, but being treated as if he or she did and murdered via DNR, and Shane is arguing about people who DO have terminal illness. Stop changing the subject. My father would have gone home and lived to 100, there was nothing wrong with him except AFIB, and even that went away. They gave him sedatives for no reason, as he was not agitated, morphine for no reason, he was not in pain, and put him on blood pressure lowering drugs, as if he had hypertension (he had HYPOtension), which put him into cardiogenic shock which eventually 2 weeks later resulted in death. Very few people survive cardiogenic shock, even then they are young. The fact that he was 92 and survived a blood pressure of 37/25, heart rate of 10/minute, and body temperature of 95, and bounced back to full recovery, means he was far from DYING!

As he was recovering from the shock, he kept asking "What is my condition?" and I had no answer except to say cardiogenic shock, which is no real answer. His kidneys failed when he was in shock, because kidneys require blood pressure to operate. After his blood pressure came back, his kidney function went back to normal. It took a week to recover, but every day he asked "What is my condition?" and there was no real answer. I could not tell him the true answer........he survived.

I am truly sorry for all on this post that have had a loved one mistreated to the point of death under medical care. I had a dr (hospitalist) place a DNR on my dad, he told me that was my dads request. WTF he is so sick he can't see straight yet you (illegally) place a DNR. NOT on my watch, I went to hospital administration, I was at the point of being hauled off by police, but you are not going to not do everything medically available to at least try to get him better. ADVOCATE that is what you can do for your loved ones. Why would you ever trust a complete stranger with decisions about life and death. Flowgo, I am so sorry for the loss of your mom and I hope that you involved law enforcement to get the guilty out of the profession so they can not do this to another family.

During my time caregiving for my Dad I have found that NO ONE cares as much for your loved one as you do, period. I have to check and double check what meds, what care, what food and on and on. I am listed as PITA in his files, yep that's me and don't ever forget it. All of his caregivers know that I will work with them and do everything I can to be a help but, i want information and that is how it is, period. If you hurt my dad for any reason prepared for the fight of your life, I will go straight for the jugular, not physically, but they will never practice harm on another patient. Which means a big job for me, record keeping, med tracking and loads of questions. I had a Dr tell me that I just needed to listen to him and stop. I told him that it was a huge red waving flag that he had a problem that I wanted a 2nd opinion and if he didn't like it, that was his problem and made me even more certain that a 2nd opinion was needed. Just because these people have years of education they do not necessarily have good hearts or good decision making skills, so even though we may be less educated it is time to stop treating Dr as gods and start questioning them, I have found that a good Dr appreciates questions and is open to a 2nd opinion, they know they are not infallible and do have the patients well being as there motivation. So advocate, advocate and tell others to advocate and if some medical person gets huffy, get administration involved and advocate. You have the right, oh by the way, I had to fight without any POAs in place, that has been fixed now but, I wasn't going to let that stop me, my dad couldn't speak for himself and I was not going to not make people accountable because of a piece of paper.

I want to add that my husband and I both have DNRs and living wills, we have talked about our wishes with everyone that could possibly intervene and make it very clear, if I'm gone please let me go but, if there's a chance to recover a quality life, do not unplug me.

We are each entitled to personal choices and I hope that each poster appreciates that we are sorry for your individual experience and pray that you find peace and justice for the loss of your loved one.

This is all going back rather a long way but it does highlight another of the challenges.

Flowgo, as I remember it, was talking about a person who *in her opinion* was not dying. But in the opinion of the doctors, the court, the responsible sibling who in fact was providing care - in the opinion of everyone who was in possession of and understood the data, that is - the poor lady was most certainly dying.

There is a lot of desperation at large in the debate which makes it even harder. You have to be pretty callous to force somebody to accept a fact that she rejects because it is breaking her heart; but on the other hand if you don't, they may persist in their belief that their loved one is not terminally ill and may then push for treatments which amount to physical cruelty.

A loving heart does not of itself make you a good judge of clinical decisions.
Laymen have to be able to trust their doctors.
That is why the profession needs to work harder to maintain trust and to improve communication.

I agree - no, really, I do! - with ProLife that pain relief should not be given to patients who are not requesting it OR showing clear signs of distress UNLESS there is good clinical reason to prevent breakthrough pain. Some types of pain are very hard to relieve, much more straightforward to pre-empt; plus lower doses are needed for prevention than for relief. You wouldn't wait for a burns victim to come round and start screaming before you topped up his analgesia, for example.

Coutrymouse is making the same argument Shane made. Flowgo states that her mother was not terminally ill, and Countrymouse argues that she was, even adding bogus arguments like "the court (says she was)". Really? What court? Where do you see in Flowgo's story that her mother was "most certainly dying"? Where do you see a responsible sibling who knew all the data (implying Flowgo didn't). Bogus argument.

You'd have to trawl all the way back through this and other threads. I haven't the heart, but feel free.

I read it twice. Thanks for showing that you never read her story and made up your argument without doing so.

And by the way, I can't speak for others, but this is my personal protocol

I read a person's post
I assume it is true and accurate
I think about it and ask further questions
I come to the best conclusion I can about what is going on, remembering the limitations of what you can gather on an internet forum
If I really can't think of anything helpful to say I try not to say anything at all

Flowgo's story was very sad and she was in a great deal of distress. As I say, you'd have to go back through the whole thing.

You've read through her 109 comments twice, cross-referencing them with all the questions she didn't answer?

A DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) and/or POLST (Physician Order for Life Sustaining Treatment) is for the PATIENT to sign, not the family. It is a statement of what you want done and what you don't want done.

It is NOBODY'S business what a person does with THEIR OWN life at the end stages. If I've got cancer and am in great pain, I'm going to sign a DNR and POLST so I don't suffer any longer than I have to. In most terminal diseases, the person themselves should be able to dictate what treatment they want to receive or refuse.

Many people sign THEMSELVES into hospice. That is THEIR choice. They know that hospice uses Morphine and Ativan, they agree to that and it is NO ONE ELSE'S business
what they do with their end of life plans. You also have the right to refuse medications at any time. To forcefully make a patient take a medicine is battery (like assault and battery).

When one group starts dictating what others should and shouldn't do, we no longer have individual rights, which is a violation of the constitution.

Profile, I applaud your right to stand against euthanasia, mercy killing, abortion, hospice, assisted suicide or any other cause you choose.
But you HAVE to let other people decide for themselves. It's not YOUR place to tell them what to do. You only have jurisdiction over your OWN life.

Can we please leave it that way?


Morgan,
So you are saying that "the greatest generation" is being MURDERED by "the baby boomers" (their OWN children) for convenience sake? Holy Moly, you must be out of your mind! Have you read this board? It is FILLED with those of us who are taking care of our parents, the best way we can, sacrificing home, marriage, money and health, in the process. As are 90% of other baby boomers around our country.

Yes, there may be a small percentage who don't want or can't have the responsibility of caregiving for reasons that range from laziness to the baby boomer being a victim of the parent's verbal, emotional and physical/sexual abuse. So shame on the lazy kid but what about the abused adult child. This board has many posts from them. It would be in their best interest not be around their parent. If there are no other family members, the state will be their guardian.
What about those baby boomers that are caring for others-maybe a MIL and a disabled child in the same house? Or those who are disabled (mentally or physically) themselves?
WHO ARE YOU TO DETERMINE WHO IS "BAD" FOR NOT TAKING CARE OF THEIR PARENTS? I suggest you find out what is the REASON that every adult child can't take care of their folks before you point your finger.

Now-My Pet Peeve;
As for "the greatest generation" (WW2 vets), ALL PEOPLE who have served their country and endured hardships and loss, pain and suffering, trauma and torture, potentially giving their lives for the United States of America, ARE THE GREATEST. One age group only doesn't deserve that distinction. Heroes are any age, from any generation. God bless the KIA's and MIA's from ALL wars and conflicts, for fighting on our behalf for our freedom. They ALL are true heroes.

CountryMouse...don't bother it's the troll who changes its screen name and harassed everyone...

Oh well, we DO have physician assisted death in Canada, and despite my initial worry it's working out quite well.

I didn't know that, CW - when was it introduced?

You sent me in search of the answer CM... the legislation became law in June 2016. This was the result of our supreme court determining that the law banning assisted suicide was unconstitutional.

Countrymouse, I read this thread a 3rd time. Flowgo made 12 posts, from 6 years ago up until 3 years ago, none of which include anything about a court decision or a "responsible sibling". If you are referencing posts on other threads where she did, you need to link to them or I will believe you made these points up.

Progressives and liberals who favor socialized medicine know that one of the only ways to make it affordable is to cut way back on care for the elderly, as that is one of the biggest costs. The best way to make it cheaper is to euthanize them. Doctors are given bonuses to write DNR's, and hospitals don't get government support for the beds with patients that have DNR's in them, so they are forced to empty the beds to make room for patients they will get paid for. The cardiologist who came in to see my father told me, when my father was just coming out of shock and starting to recover from it, "I guess the hospital needed the bed." There is only one thing that could possibly mean. Within 6 days, my father made a complete 100% recovery and was transferred to rehab so he could be able to walk again (his legs got weak from 2 weeks in the hospital).

Mike, I owe you an apology - I plead my own senior moment, the passage of time and my reluctance to go back through months of stress.

Flowgo was the one who picked a fight with the coroner over the causes of death listed on her mother's death certificate which "had to be changed to the real one" as she put it. I don't think we ever found out what "the real one" was, or what "minor elective procedure" landed her mother in hospital, though others may have got to the bottom of it?

The lady I was thinking of, confusing her with if you prefer, was MomLover, whose sister had a power of attorney which some fool of a judge did not accept was a forgery.

There were other parallels. Both of these ladies were going through agony, is the main one, and were unreachable. It was miserable watching it.