How can we convince Dad to let us keep a copy of the POA in our home?

How about having dad sign a H IPAA form which gives your husband the ability to talk to the doctor and hospital about dad's condition? Can the lawyer prepare what I believe is called a springing poa, which is only activated when the patient is incapacitated? Ultimately I believe the H IPAA authority is the more important one.

A POA is more important as it gives you the power to act, not just receive medical info like the HIPAA. If the POA was prepared by an attorney get a copy from that office.

vegaslady, I kept a copy of the POA, but it's not legally binding since it has no signatures. But, at least we know what's in it. Yes, we did have it prepared by a attorney & it covers everything.

I see both sides of this dilemma. First, I understand completely your FIL's concern about having a POA floating around out there. Secondly, I see your concern - because my own mom LOST the original of her POA and banks refused to accept a copy.

If your husband ever needs to place that POA authority, believe me, in most all cases, he will have to do so in person -- most assuredly ALWAYS with banks. "Let me FAX you a copy of my POA for my dad" would, in all likelihood, get a laugh.

I'd suggest you press him on having a copy of your FILs Healthcare Power of Attorney. He shouldn't have a problem with that. Ultimately, to care for his dad, a HCPOA is far more valuable for instant access.

As to the powerful POA (the piece of paper that turns your husband into his dad), perhaps he would agree to leave an original with his attorney for safe keeping.

Try not to take it personally. It's a normal fear for anyone. "What if's" are scary.

ba8alou, all the doctors have my husband's phone number on record as the person to call. On the various times he's been in the hospital, my husband has spoken to the doctors. The POA we have, which was prepared by an attorney and covers everything; including the patient becoming incapacitated. We just can't seem to get my father-in-law to understand that we should have a signed copy (the attorney drew up 3, all were signed & notarized).

So where are the other two signed copies? Didn't the attorney keep a copy that can be given to you?

Our attorney retained the origional and gave us copies. Couldn't you contact the law office and request a copy? If you are the POA then the attorney will have no problem doing this.

I don't think an attorney can simply give out one of the POAs to the named POA without prior authorization on file. If my attorney gave out his copy (or worse, the original) of my POA to the designee without my knowledge and approval, I'd work at having him disbarred.

Maybe many people don't realize what a powerful document this is.

Attorneys typically have "conformed copies" executed; these are duplicate originals, signed and notarized, and generally marked "conformed copy" somewhere on the DPOA.

If the attorney doesn't want to provide you with a conformed copy, he/she should at least provide you with a copy of one of the executed originals.

It's unfortunate that your FIL has taken this position. There may be a time when your authority needs to be established for emergency action which would be delayed because he won't cooperate.

Good luck in getting a copy; it's only common sense that you should have one.

Just FYI, attorneys generally do not release an original of a document they've drafted, except for a Promissory Note (which is an entirely different issue). Even if the client has selected another attorney, the entire file is copied before releasing it to the new attorney.

And I doubt if releasing a copy of a document in which someone is granted authority w/o the holder's permission would even rate a finger shake by the discipline board, let alone disbarment.

If someone wants/expects/allows someone else to act as an attorney-in-fact, he/she needs to trust that person to have a copy of the document. Otherwise, that authority can just become a burden.

GardenArtist, I'm beginning to believe that people (myself included) don't "get" POA's. For instance, my mom lost her original. What is surprising about that?? She's 86 years old. So, when I needed to use it, I went to the attorney. Well, he didn't HAVE another original. Said it's not his policy to have people execute more than one. One of her banks will not accept a copy, even though he certified it.

Okay, so let's just execute another one. "Didn't you tell me your mom has dementia?" "Yes, mild dementia." "I can't do it, Maggie, I'd lose my license."

Lesson learned? Make sure one's attorney has several originals executed and keeps one in file. Other lesson learned from having schlepped around to all the banks at a time when I had much better things to do? Place POAs with financial institutions as soon a you execute them.

I've given my cousin an original of the POA naming her. And plan to place one myself with my financial institutions at first opportunity. To solve the "original" dilemma, I was fortunate. I was able to TAKE mom to all of her banks and have her THERE to place a copy. But one bank, PNC, would not accept it because it wasn't original and wasn't less than six months old. (What??)

POAs may be powerful documents, but getting them honored? That's something else again.

Maggie, it sounds like you've had some bad experiences with DPOAs. I'm sorry for that. It kind of leaves a bad taste in your mouth, doesn't it?

It's unfortunate that people often don't have a way to determine how good an elder law or estate planning attorney is. And it sounds like the attorney whose policy was to have clients execute only one original wasn't too good of an attorney. As in, duh???

As I wrote, executing "conformed copies" was standard at the law firms for which I worked. But they were the top (silk stocking or white shoe) law firms.

It applied to Living Trusts, DPOAs, Health Care Proxies, and Certificates of Trust Existence and Authority (a summary of the authority and powers under the Trust).

I think executing only one copy is a reflection of someone who isn't "in the big leagues". Those who are know that multiple copies are often required, and use the method of "conforming" to accomplish this.

Was this attorney a single practitioner?

I did work for one attorney who was so bad I turned down temp assignments with him even when I was desperate for the money. He was very controlling over his clients, created enough trust and ancillary documents to fill a 3" ring binder, but became incensed when his clients wanted to review them before signing. He should never have been in the business.

I'm wondering if that's why you've had trouble with the banks.

But in thinking back, the only time I set up accounts was after my sister's death, and I was Co-Trustee so the issue of a DPOA never arose.

I will say that I've had some dealings with PNC and wouldn't deal with them again. I did some research on them that made me uncomfortable.

Again, I wish your experience had been more positive.

You hit the nail on the head. He's a single practitioner. I was in real estate for 12 years...retired...but I used him on all of my closings. I've known and used him for 15 years. I'm looking at him now in a new light. Thanks, GA.

Good job, GA. There's a lesson in most every post that comes along.

Maggie, Bingo! Just to give you an idea of how estate planning practice areas of larger law firms are set up...

Various kinds of estate planning documents are standardized in data banks. Various clauses for probably every conceivable situation are also standardized in data banks.

When an estate plan is created, the attorney may give his/her secretary a checklist which includes which version of a (Living, Irrevocable, Charitable, etc.) Trust, which standardized clauses to include, various options for heirs, trustees and successor trustees, etc. The clauses are identified by category and description, so the secretary just pulls them from data banks and plugs them into the documents as appropriate.

Every document is still customized to the client's individual wishes, but those wishes generally fall within established parameters so that a plan can be put together by a competent and knowledgeable secretary quickly (say a few hours or more, again depending on the complexity).

After the documents are completed and reviewed with the client, they're bound, ready for execution and delivery to the client. We went home with originals and conformed copies of everything, as well as a receipt for the original Pour Over Will which was left with our attorney for safekeeping in our vault.

It's really quite a bit different from a single practitioner operation.

And incidentally, these law firms often have newletters updating interested parties on changes in estate planning, tax, gifting, etc.

If you're interested, PM me and I'll give you links to some of these types of firms, just to see the difference how a major practice operates vs. a one person practice.

vegaslady, our attorney drew up 4 POA's. Since we live in another city from FIL, we then took the papers to him. The attorney said we would probably only need 3 so I kept 1 unsigned copy because I know my FIL & I wanted to make sure we knew what was in the document. The other POA's were signed in front of a notary; then FIL picked up the papers & said that he'd keep them. There was no reasoning with him to give us one. And, unless we wanted to see him tear up the documents, my husband agreed thinking that at some point in time, he could get his dad to give us one of the signed originals. Three years later he's still working on that.

How about giving him a perfect copy in place of his original ? The POA is actually for you. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do:)

Does your husband have the keys to FILs home? I ask because of your "assuming he can get in" comment. If he does not, then it's obvious, sorry to say, that FIL does not trust his son. If I were in your husband's shoes I would resign POA and have dad have it redrawn with someone he does trust with his life, possibly his lawyer. Ultimately, this will cost him lots in legal fees every time lawyer has to be contacted for poa but if it makes dad happy, it's his dime. I'm not big on putting myself out to caregive and worry about folks who don't trust me. If your husband can do a bit of "detatch with love" it might actually help the relationship with his dad.

Ba8alou and sandrabullard make some good points/suggestions. If your husband is willing to be in this crap position (I know what it's like to be handed the responsibility of the job, but not the trust of the person that's giving me the job), then he'll need to obtain the POA. Visit his father, get him distracted, and replace the father's POA w/a copy. He should also call his doctors and provide his contact info.
If he decides he doesn't want this responsibility, he should explain to his father what an impossible situation he'd be in if he did accept it, and tell his father to hire someone.

No offense, ba8, but I disagree with your advice. POAs are scary documents for anyone. My mom was always afraid that someone would get their hands on her POA and IMPERSONATE me. *shrug* If that's the way his dad wants to roll, why not just respect that and operate within that constraint? Why push him to the wall? BTW, I don't think an attorney can hold POA for a client. I'm not sure about that. Perhaps GardenArtist can clarify.

Maggie, no offense taken! Just trying to think outside the box, and the side comment about " assuming he can get into the house :made me think that the lack of trust may go deeper. Also, sometimes being strong enough to say, fine, I'll walk away" has the effect of allowing another person to see that you have no ulterior motives, while trying to persuade them makes them feel less trustful. That was certainly our experience with my MIL. The more my husband tried to get her to take better care of herself, the louder she screamed "elder abuse".

ba8alou, yes, my husband has keys to FIL's home. In the past, my FIL has changed the keys without telling us & we find out the hard way; when we go to visit, we usually check to make sure our keys are still valid. My FIL has an apartment upstairs that he rents. My husband has flat out asked him if he doesn't trust him & he says he does. Their relationship is strange (by my standards). My husband's an only child; his mom died of cancer in 1989 & his dad simply can't be bother with visiting, calling or even acknowledging us, our kids, or their families. He has traveled to visit on some special occasions; i.e. graduations, baptisms, even a Christmas & Thanksgiving once. But, he stopped giving b'day/anniversary cards to all of us many years ago. He never acknowledges any gifts that are sent to him whether by us or our kids. When my husband calls him, which is usually once a month, to make sure he's ok (we've already had relatives call us long distance to tell us he's been in the hospital & he told the doctor's not to bother us cause we live out of town), he doesn't ask about either of our girls or their kids. He's missing out on so much; especially seeing his 5 great-grandchildren. So, somewhere in that thinking, he won't let my husband & I into his life, let alone keep his POA.

Your FIL is only repeating what he has heard over the years, that POA means someone can rob him. He isn't thinking it through that your husband will not do that.
I live in NJ, and was POA for my mom while she was alive. I had plenty of copies, signed, and every agency, care center or bank I went to accepted photocopies. So that must vary, a lot.

We have POA for mom, but in reading it, it does not apply to health care. So we have a Health Care Proxy "in case something happens" and that is the document you need at the ER. We carry it in the car, because she has been to the ER six times in the last year. As for getting in the apartment, if it is a simple key and knob, a cheap screwdriver will get you in, and as a last resort, your foot works well. In my younger days I kicked in a 2" fire door as a last resort. Adrenaline makes you very strong.

pamstegman,The POA were had drawn up include health situations. Oh, to be clear, my FIL owns his house & rents the top floor as an apartment. So, he changes keys to the front door when he gets a new tenant. Breaking down the front door would cause a liability to the tenant. But, yes, if need be, in an emergency, a broken door & the repercussions from the tenant would be acceptable.

K; Can he be convinced to send a new key to his son when he changes the locks? Oy, he sounds like a very self-contained person. That's lovely, until something happens to him. Very tough situtaion.

There may be something else going on here, and I suggest it because I've gone through the same thing, on a different issue.

Despite having enough DIY experience to handle some repair tasks, as well as contracting out other jobs, my father feels that only men, from his church, can and should handle those tasks. As a result, some of them get done, some don't. He won't agree to hiring the tasks either. These aren't cosmetic issues; they're ones of safety.

I've become so frustrated over this position that it's sometimes lead to complete exhaustion as well as higher levels of anxiety, not to mention conflict. I finally decided that I can't fight this intransigent attitude and won't let my own health deteriorate any more because of obstinacy and/or stubbornness. So I back away and when an issues arises, I just say "well, call someone in the church."

I'm wondering if this same kind of "dig in the heels", stubborn resistance isn't an underlying factor with K4Rose's FIL. He's obviously a strong willed man and doesn't compromise. Yet he's creating anxiety in his son and DIL who are trying to think ahead and provide for him. Is this deliberate or subconsious, and is it representative of manipulation and/or controlling behavior?

This could be simple manipulation, or it could also be reflective of a refusal to release any kind of control at all, albeit something that could help him.

Without criticizing anyone's suggestions, I would strongly recommend against substituting any unsigned or conformed copy for the original. Getting into the house without having current keys would also fall into that category, even if K4Rose and her DH feel it's an emergency.

I think surreptitious substitution that would only increase and entrench FIL's attitude. And if there is an emergency, it's better to call the police and/or fire department and let them break down the door. There's nothing he can do to them except complain. It might even do some good because he'd likely be advised by the responding emergency personnel that he should have keys, and other emergency arrangements, provided to and made with his own family.

Maggie, as to whether or not an attorney can hold and act under a DPOA, I believe this is possible and do have a vague recollection of seeing this in some documents, but it wasn't common, and I wouldn't want to say for sure w/o doing some research. It may also vary by state. Sorry, I just don't have enough knowledge to firmly say an attorney can or can't.

Attorneys do act as Trustees though, which gives them a lot of authority, so common sense would suggest that they could hold DPOA power. However, common sense doesn't always prevail in life.


Honestly, I think K4Rose's situation is an intractable one. FIL isn't going to budge; DH and K4Rose will probably always be in a position of trying to help him when he won't cooperate.

Sometimes the best thing to do is play his game, call his bluff and tell him that unless he agrees to cooperate (provide current keys, conformed copy), DH doesn't feel that he can perform the duties expected to his own level of satisfaction. Situations could occur when he couldn't act under the DPOA and blame could be assessed against him - i.e., if he's willing to act, he needs to have the documented authority to do so, IN HIS POSSESSION.

Bluntly, throw FIL's actions right back in his face. Know though that I don't make this suggestion lightly.

We had to have a certified copy of POA for banking issues; went to attorney's office, he gave us a signed copy and we took it to the courthouse to have it certified. We're in NC; perhaps this approach will work for you? There are so many instances in which you may need it.

Regarding the changing of the locks when a tenant changes, I would suggest that FIL have the locksmith install the lock as a master/submaster keying. FIL and your husband keep the master key. Tenant gets a submaster key only. Locksmith can then rekey for a different sub, leaving the master the same. That way, dad doesn't have to change his keys and the house remains secure with a new tenant. Should cost a little more on the first setup of the system, but no more for changes later, and it gives you the comfort that your key will always be working.

AustinOakland makes a good point. When we were looking for lockboxes at the big box stores last year we also looked at combination locks in which the combination can be changed. Lock stays the same, only the sequencing of the combination to open is changed.